Brian Williams, Stockholm, 2011 © Carl A
Brian Williams is a highly gifted sound person, armed with sensitive ears, ditto fingers, and a creative musical mind. Over the decades he has created a body of work that usually gets tagged “dark ambient”. For the lack of a better term, let’s stick with that for now. Williams’ music is certainly dark and its strong evocative potential (as in “stirring up inner images, fantasies and daydreams”) is there all along too. No wonder he’s been busy working on both independent horror films and occasional live performances in really odd places (The Church of Satan’s 40th birthday bash in Los Angeles 2006, for instance).
After having worked with proto-experimentalist collective SPK in the early 80s, Brian Williams drifted on to an ambitious productivity under the Lustmord name, including many fruitful collaborations (with Jhon Balance, Jarboe, Clock DVA, Chris and Cosey, to mention but a few).
Behind this almost legendary enigma we find the Brian Williams who is also a very normal human being. Williams is a fast talker, funny, and likes to downplay any morose states of mind or sinister agendas. For Williams, it’s all about the sound and about fitting the sounds in question into a context. When that happens, it’s all good – albeit dark and, yes, ambient too.
Stockholm was blessed with one of those rare live Lustmord performances in January 2011. On the day before the actual concert, I met Brian Williams at “EMS”, an old but hi-tech studio-cum-hangout for scholastic/electro-acoustic composers. In a way, he was then literally a dark star “hanging out” in this pretty dusty environment. As that’s also the title of my favourite Lustmord album – The place where the dark stars hang – I thought that could be a good way to begin our conversation.
Where is that place, the actual "place where the dark stars hang"?
Well, that's an interesting question, I'll give you that. I haven't thought of a deep meaning as to the exact location, because it was never meant to mean anywhere specific. I mean, I don't have anywhere in mind for exactly where that place is. It's just a fact that there is a place, that's what it's about. Pretty much all of my work alludes to things I don't always point any lights on. Sometimes it's deliberately not vague, more enigmatic, and also some of the times it’s very specific. It's where you go, that’s where the place actually is. I have a place, there's an old concept behind it, and actually all these albums are alluding to each other. They can look back on each other. There are some ideas that I often explore and mainly I tend to not go too deeply into detail on purpose. Sometimes there is not much detail and sometimes there are a lot of layers of information, but I kind of like it to be your interpretation of the record itself. That album is at that place where your mind takes you when you listen to it. Most of my albums are about creating a space that only exists when the music is playing, quite often a literal space. Well, actually it is a literal space, that's the whole point of what the music is, and when the music ends, that place is gone again. And you can enter into it in your own way if you wish.
You can perceive space in different ways: it could be an emotional space, an audio space or a visual space. I'm curious, when you concoct the music, when you put that together, do you also get emotionally involved? Do you get images or visions?
No, I don't really get that, because I'm very much about the sound. I was going to say "painting with sound". But if you call it that, it sounds really pretentious. You know what I mean. But that's how I approach it. For me, it's always the sound, and actually I fail often. It's a perfectly sensible question, but no, I don't really. I'm always working with the sound, and I'm aware of that, that some of that sometimes conjures up images in people. But for me, I know it's about the sound. I'm also going back to what I was just saying earlier: the structure of the album is in fact in this journey and this place, because they are always conceived. I always know how my album is going to be. Before I even begin working on it in my head, it already exists. I always work on albums as albums, and there's always a beginning and you go somewhere and it brings you back out again.
The big picture, the concept, is already there in your mind?
Yes, very much so. When I'm working on a project, the actual recording building site is the boring site. I've already planned the house and I actually know how it's going to work and now I have to actually dig the trench. When I'm digging the trench, I'm already thinking about the next phase, and the exciting bit is the planning and the ideas.
Is that also valid on the detail level, like one structure in the concept, like one specific sound or track? Do you work and rework and rework or is that already clear in your mind?
I don't rework when I record albums and there's nothing left over because I know this is where things will go. And yeah, in the process of working, something will come up, like another idea and then things evolve in a different way. But generally speaking, it pretty much follows the plan. Not in a kind of strict plan, it's not strict at all. When I think of these things, it's really interesting planning and having these ideas and then actually doing them. I do enjoy that process but usually in that process I'm already thinking about the next one, and it's really interesting. That's the bit I really find stimulating.
I find it very intriguing to hear also, because of all the people I've talked to that are involved in similar kinds of music, I'd say that most of them are very spontaneous, spur of the moment, kind of “try this and try that”... But it's interesting to hear that everything is already there in your mind.
Well, I can imagine doing it the other way myself. I don't have a problem with that, but for me it's the plan that matters. I'm also a bit anal about this. I'm very much a concept kind of guy. Yeah, I like coming up with concepts, that's the bit I really enjoy. The album is always a concept. There are all kinds of really little details in there. I even put in things that are very specific, but it's because the detail is really important to me.
That leads us onwards to where the concepts come from. Where do you get the inspiration for these details? Where do you think it all comes from originally?
Well, again, I think inspiration… That's a tricky one. I know I like being around creative people. I like creativity. I find creativity very inspiring. I enjoy the stimulus of being around people who create. That's about as specific as I get for my inspiration actually. As far as where my ideas come from, I honestly can't tell you. I mean obviously I absorb things like we all do on a daily basis. I read a lot, I watch things, I talk a lot. So they’re always bubbling under the surface, these ideas. But as far as specific concepts, I can't say I can point to any specific thing. It’s who I am. I don't really think about it.
My impression of you and your way of working is also that it is a lot of work. There's a lot of discipline, and that you're also sort of fertilizing it with commercial work in that sense. I think my own take on it would be that you're “honing”: you're flexing your creative muscles. Whether it's your brain or something else, you keep it alive and thereby you get benefits.
I enjoy creating. I like to create this stuff, this is why I do it. That’s what I very often say. My music is not commercial and I wish it was, cause it'd bring me money and a decent lifestyle and that kind of stuff. But, you know, I do what I do, this is who I am. And it's great that there are some people who are interested in it and who are listening to it. That is very flattering, but this is what I'd do anyway. I can't imagine not doing this. If nobody were listening to it, it would still exist. And I will keep doing it. I mean, I should really get a real job. But this is who I am. I don't really think about it that much, it just is.
In terms of the movie work and the soundtracks, has it ever happened that the producers have come back and said: “Well, Brian, no, this is too weird”?
Oh sure, it has happened. It's very common.
How do you adjust?
There have been quite a few times in movies and commercials and little things for TV, that they've come to me because they want “weird and fucked up”. “We want something really fucked up and industrial and fucked up and dark. You can do dark, right? Dark!” And then we have this dialogue: "What would you mean by dark? What would you mean by fucked up?”, and they go, “It has to be really fucked up!” And then you give them some stuff and they come back and say: “This is so fucked up, this is too fucked up!” "Well we've had this discussion, you wanted it to be really out there so..." And then you give them industrial and you give them some stuff and they say, “This is not industrial! Oh, we were thinking more like Nine Inch Nails”. "You didn't say anything about Nine Inch Nails, you said you wanted more avantgarde industrial." This happens quite often. Especially the dark… “We want dark, this is too dark! We can't use this!” Well, for fuck's sake, what do you want?
Are there any directors that you would like to work with?
I'd love to work with David Lynch, for example, that would be great, but I don't know what he's really doing these days. I don't think he's as interesting as he used to be, unfortunately, but he is an interesting guy. A David Lynch movie would be really enjoyable. I like the way he approaches sound. I think David Fincher is really great. I love Korean and I love Asian directors. David Lynch comes to the immediate mind but actually there are a lot of people doing interesting stuff.
So it's not like you have a wish list, or your agent has a wish list?
I don't have an agent. I don't have a manager or anything. I saw a movie recently called “Monsters”, which I really enjoyed. It wasn't great but it was really good, you know, and after watching it I thought I would really enjoy working on something like that. I just like interesting work and working with interesting people.
Was that one of the original reasons for you moving from the UK to Los Angeles? To be closer to the movie world?
If you want to work on movies you have to be there. The first time I went to America was on a tour with Chris and Cosey. They are really good friends of mine and they were touring America in the late 80s. They just asked: “Why don't you come with us? We are going to be traveling all across America and why don't you come with us?” And then we came, and I really enjoyed crossing 10.000 miles in six weeks. It was great and as we went further and further West we enjoyed it more, because it's more and more different. It was really interesting because you're European and looking at America from a distance and not being a big fan of it culturally – it's a love-hate kind of thing. Anyway, going over there I realized it's completely different from what I thought it was going be. The “Have a nice day”-stuff which I really hated… When you get there you realize they actually mean it, and it gives you a whole different perspective of what it's really like. And culturally hating things like McDonald's and Coke and advertising and going over there and finding there's stuff like jazz, stuff like blues, a lot of really interesting cultural stuff. Anyway, going over there, I just really liked America, especially the West coast and California. Arriving in California really felt like coming home.
Something I often talk about is growing up in Britain. It's a generalization but it's also true, that things tend to be very negative in Britain. So being in America, being amongst Americans, you feel much more positive about things and doing stuff. I always liked the idea of the ideal world, that it would be nice to live in America. But it was kind of impractical. There were a lot of things getting in the way. It's not an easy country to move to, as far as the barriers they have. They just don't let anybody in. But then I was there on vacation and a friend of mine there, Graeme Revell, was a film composer at the time. He was having some problems with his Mac and I fixed it for him. I was good with that stuff. This was around 1988-89 and he was working on a movie and he was having trouble with some sounds. So when I got back to London I sent him some stuff he could use, which he did, and he really liked what I'd sent him. It was just a few weeks later that he called me up and he said, “You'd be really useful if you were here doing this for me.” So he offered me some work there and I moved to LA to do that. I didn't plan that. Like most things it kind of just happened. I stumbled into it.
Do you think that the vastness of the space in California has affected you musically?
Well, it's inspiring. We have a big four-wheel drive truck and we love to go off road, miles away, to places that are difficult to go to, miles and miles away from the nearest person. I love the desert, it's just a great place to be. Someone was asking me last year about living in California, how has that changed my work. I don’t really think so. It seemed to be like an idea that would change everything. But my music was called dark and stuff before too. People have responded to my music in just the same way when I'm living in sunny California. It's changed things in the sense that I like what I am now. Los Angeles, where I live, is a great place and it's also like most of the big cities, in that it has plusses and minuses. I like Southern California more than I like living in Los Angeles. I'm happier living in California than I was before I lived in California, as far as being somewhere. So in a sense, it's changed things, as I'm more comfortable now.
If I wanted to describe your music, the absence of rhythm creates a very slow moving flow feeling, and I was thinking: have you ever thought of that as having almost therapeutic qualities in regard to the times we're living in, that are so fast, rhythmic and fragmented?
No, I haven't actually. It would be nice if that was a fact but…
I can vouch for that. I get very relaxed and calm when listening to your music.
Well, yeah, I guess it could do it for some people. It would be nice if it did. But it's a very deliberate approach. My music is what it is. It's kind of ironic, but it exists because it exists. I was feeling a lack of it, of the stuff I wanted to hear that didn't exist, so I had to go and create it myself. Of course the irony is that when you create anything, the last thing you're going to do is listen to it yourself. I'm assuming it’s as if I'm reading a book, I'm just not going to read anything that I've written myself. And this has become a style that other people copy, and of course I'm not going to listen to their stuff. The things that I listen to are completely opposite to what I do, which is interesting.
If we step outside the musical world, can you find any audio memories from childhood that you think have affected you?
Yes, but actually they'd be more synthetic in a sense. When I was really little, there were a few TV shows that were kind of stranger, more electronic. It was something different and, you know, even the tune on it, there was a song called “Telstar”, which was great. There was all this singing and people using stranger sounds, and by strange I mean things that aren't real, but synthetic machines. As a kid I wasn't really aware of it. The only thing I'm aware of in the end is that it's just something different and most of the stuff just happened to be electronic. The fact that it was electronic wasn't the factor. The factor was that it sounded different from what you normally hear. That's actually quite good because it's a reflection. It's kind of interesting because I don't do it a lot, but when I'm trying to do it my approach is that I like to create a sound that you don't actually recognize. Over this, I might suggest something too. It might be something that you actually do recognize. But a lot of the time I like my work to have a sound that you can't recognize, even though I have used strings and drums and whatever. Most of my sounds is stuff that I like to think that people can't tell what it really is. People may think they know, they might suggest something, but usually it's not really the case. I like to create sounds that don't otherwise exist.
Given that you work with music technology in a very cutting edge way, I assume that you're very interested in it. Does that inspire you too, I mean that technological development in itself? Or is it merely a tool?
It's a tool. Or both actually. It's definitely a good question. I always get asked by people who want to do something that I do, what tools do I use and the answer is always it doesn't really matter. I'd be happy to tell you, but it doesn't matter what my tools are – it's the ideas. Technology’s something that makes things easier but that isn't always a good thing. And a lot of the times I think about when we didn't have this much stuff. Then you would have to use your imagination a little bit more maybe. I think that's the best way to go. But yeah, I have a lot of tools and I love playing around with them. When I moved into using computers for recording and manipulating, that made a huge difference for me, because that's how my brain works. Before that, the things I wanted to do I couldn't quite do and in that sense it has been hugely inspiring. But that’s not to say that I wouldn't be doing things anyway. Modern technological tools have definitely helped me going into the direction I wanted to go. But at the same time I don't think it would have stopped me if it didn't exist.
Have you ever felt tempted to try out any other creative expressions?
I thought I already was.
In terms of writing or painting or...?
Well, I actually went to an art school for a short while. I was good at art, especially fine art, drawing, and it seemed like a natural kind of direction to go. As I often say, there was a mutual agreement that I should leave. I didn't fit in. I thought it wasn't my place at all. That was really interesting: what art school did for me was stop me doing art. I haven't drawn anything since. I've been doing work for albums and stuff but more like creative, directive stuff. It really took it all out of me. I actually thought for quite a while that art school took it away from me. I'm not bitter about anything though. One thing art school did for me was making me not to want to paint anymore.
Or maybe it just set you free and focused to work on the sound?
I didn't realize that until many years later, ironically enough, because I should have realized it much, much sooner. At the same time that was happening, I was in art school and I was getting fed up with all the bullshit and all. This was when punk rock was happening and Throbbing Gristle, the first album came out, so I was being drawn to that. And what actually happened, without me realizing it at the time, was that part of my mind became focused on sound as opposed to visuals. I'm dyslectic so writing is always a pain in the ass. I've had fun working with some friends on ideas, now especially being in LA, but not pretentious work like making movies, but we've had some ideas. I enjoy being around creative people, so there are always ideas and things. Most of my own ideas get focused in the music but there's always these other cool ideas going around.
In terms of the performances, do you feel an increasing temptation to go on doing shows?
Well, I want to do them. That's the plan. I've been interested in doing live things for a long time. But I really didn’t think of them as being a live thing, especially early on, from the technical aspects. And also I didn't think it'd be interesting live, for me, especially early on, because I would have to do something really wild. Also from a technical point of view, and especially early on, the studio became an instrument for me. The idea of actually doing that live was not very practical. It'd be boring, it'd be me tweaking sounds and it's not very interesting. I like the idea of something live but it didn't really occur to me how that would be interesting. So I never really seriously thought about it. And then years later, as technology improved and it became more popular, I thought about maybe doing some of the computer stuff live. Then I realized that more and more people have used laptops in that context. There was a combination of a couple of things. Firstly, I wouldn't pay to go and see myself standing on a stage with a laptop. So why would I actually do it? That's how my thinking has been. Then, quite a few years ago, Kraftwerk were playing in LA and I'm a big fan. I've always loved Kraftwerk. I saw them live, and they are these four guys with a laptop. I love their sound, but just standing there... Maybe I should have realized this before, but… As long as the sound is really good it can be a good show. That's the second part of the answer. Now I just say I can do a live show in a place with a good sound system. Otherwise I'm just not going to do it.
I don't want to be fully booked either, I just want to do a few shows here and there, just to keep it interesting, to make it more of an “event”. I won't go on a tour because that would be stupid. I mean, if it's not interesting for me, why should I do it? People think of Lustmord as being more like an ambient thing but for me it's not very ambient. There's actually quite a big sound in there and a lot of people don't hear that, because a lot of people don't have really good sound systems. And I've done some visuals for it too. I want people to look at the visuals and have the music do the rest.
Do you do the visuals yourself?
I'm using a lot of stuff for HD that has been manipulated, also by other people. It has taken me more time to do the visuals than the music because I have had to learn things like “After Effects”. It became a technical nightmare to do it. But it worked.
It sounds like it's really going to be like a state of the art show.
Well, I'm using a laptop and I'm using Ableton Live, which is fucking great. Each show is going be a little bit different because I'm kind of improvising. I'm blending elements from different tracks in different ways, depending on how it feels at the time. I go by feeling very much too as I'm working on things, you know. So these live things, I'm doing them by feeling. There's a lot of a making up as I go along. I want it to be improvising, but it's not really improvisation because I know exactly what I'm doing. Because first of all that's more interesting for me. And also, there's a chance that it might go wrong. When I'm doing these shows I'm deliberately not rehearsing. I do a kind of run-through so I feel early on if I'm playing this sound, then this is what it's going to be like. I tend to forget, because there are so many of them. It's hard to remember which is which. I want it to be actually live and I want it to have the chance element in there.
Have you ever felt tempted to be in a band again? To be in that social dynamic?
I love collaborating. I much prefer collaborating. I love being in a room and just throwing ideas around with people. New ideas come up and your ideas get taken to a different place. But as a combination there are few people I've been lucky to work with. There's a few people I'd actually like to work with but they are always on tour, they're recording and they have a lot of commitments, so that's tricky. And when you narrow that down now, there's a smaller group of people including the ones who aren't available but would like to be available so we include those for a while, but then there's this, “are they in a same town?” That kind of helps, you know. Of course, these days you can collaborate over a distance but it is really nothing if we're not actually in the same room. There's a friend of mine from Limp Bizkit who’s interested enough. We've talked about doing some stuff together but he's on tour with them for about a year and a half. And then another friend of mine, Sasha Grey, who is a real porn star. We've talked about doing things together but she's really busy with her career. So there's people we've actually talked to about doing things together but there's always the scheduling thing and it's often more difficult to juggle than you think. And when we're actually in the same place at the same time we think “let's just kick back with a beer”, and it's nice to just catch up as friends. And that's a more important thing than work. Sometimes it's nice to just kick back and relax.
What do you do to kick back and relax? Your ultimate relaxation?
I hang out with my friends. The thing I like the most is to sit around a table with a small group of good friends with a couple of glasses of wine and just have a good laugh. The sense of humor is very important to me. Just good fun, laughing out loud with friends. I watch a lot of movies, and in the evenings we just sit in front of the TV with a movie on. We have a really big TV and a great sound system. The dog loves to be on the sofa and we all just get on the sofa at night. I also like to read. I'm just like the normal people, and at the end of the day it's nice to relax and switch the brain off. Sometimes I watch bad TV, just not for long because it's fucking annoying. But sometimes you just want to switch off. I go on hikes with my dog too. Nothing too pretentious nor profound.
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