Kenneth Anger: The Interviews

Kenneth Anger, Los Angeles, 2006. Photo © by Carl A.

There is probably no other living artist that has been more associated with Aleister Crowley's Thelema philosophy than the American filmmaker and writer Kenneth Anger. Interested in "The Great Beast" already at an early age, he started collecting Crowley books in the 1940s. His first ”official” film, "Fireworks" (1947), Anger claims was based on Crowley’s rite of self initiation, ”Liber Pyramidos”.

Since then, Anger has made many films that are both strong, personal cinepoèmes and prime examples of what can be done experimentally on relatively small budgets. ”Scorpio Rising” (1963), ”Invocation of My Demon Brother” (1969) and ”Lucifer Rising” (1981) are among the most well known of his films. His leading position in what at the time was called ”The New American Cinema” is still undisputed. His inclusion of esoteric and homosexual themes were not only a reaction to a Zeitgeist that was becoming more and more open-minded. His work was indeed a creative and subtle protagonistic force in that process.

In 2006, the company Fantoma released ”Kenneth Anger’s Magic Lantern Cycle” on DVD. Finally, fans and film lovers could (and can) partake of Anger’s cinematic masterworks in pristine shape! Anger’s films are so multifaceted, evocative and simply beautiful, that it’s hard to claim to be a culturally inclined thelemite without actually having seen them. I won’t go into the films at all here, but do strongly recommend watching them, preferably many times. The films have since then also been re-released on DVD by the British Film Institute.

Kenneth Anger is of course also famous for having written the very entertaining books ”Hollywood Babylon”, volumes one and two. Strange tales from the Golden Age of Hollywood, where Anger grew up and, at one time, was a child actor (in William Dieterle and Max Reinhardt’s ”A Midsummer Night’s Dream”, 1935). Drawing from stories he heard as a child, and later on collecting a great amount of Hollywood memorabilia and trivia, Anger was the perfect person for the job. A spicy mix of gossip, awe, admiration and seductively funny noir stories make for two ferociously fascinating books. The glamorous and over-paid demi-gods of yesteryear were in fact as human as humans can be, and sometimes even bordering on sub-human. Kenneth Anger’s huge noir knowledge, as well as his elegant and cynically deadpan writing style, created two long time bestsellers, and deservedly so.

As an artist, Kenneth Anger has reached a wider level of recognition fairly late in life. In 2004, Alice Hutchinson’s monograph ”Kenneth Anger” (Black Dog Publishing, London) helped re-fix him on a map of general attention. The unofficial biography ”Anger” by Bill Landis (Harper-Collins, New York, 1995) also helped to some extent, but without the approval of Anger himself. As an artist who has preferred to create his own myth, Kenneth Anger certainly hasn’t appreciated the more critical glances at his life and oeuvre. Be that as it may. One can now at least safely say that the general view of Anger is one of immense respect, not ridicule. Filmmakers like Martin Scorsese and several generations of music video makers have made no secret of how influenced they’ve been by Anger’s work (mainly ”Scorpio Rising” I'd say.) Hollywood fans have enjoyed the two volumes of ”Hollywood Bablylon” and thelemites in general seem to regard Mr Anger as an "ambassador doyen of Thelema”.

I first met Kenneth Anger in Hollywood in 1989. He was then living in one half of Samson De Brier’s house, a real shrine of a place, where the worshipped were Hollywood icons of the 1920s and 30s in general (and Rudolph Valentino in particular.) Anger himself was energetic, polite and willing to share his time. Stepping in from a neighborhood that, at the time, was infested with gangs, violence, hip-hop and crack, it became a totally transcendental experience to suddenly immerse myself in exquisite vintage movie memorabilia, rare books and, not forgetting, ”Mr. Hollywood Babylon” himself. As we could hear police helicopters help raid a crack den just across the street, we sat down to chat in a pair of immensely comfortable art deco chairs.

In what way, would you say, is cinema a magical art?

Well, it's an art of vision. It's like a crystal ball, you can create visions. It also allows you to manipulate time and space and transcend realism. Obviously, the camera records what's in front of it, but it can also record the inside of a Magician's mind. How many strings are pulled behind the scenes, or special effects, or things to make this happen, are the Magician's secrets. I don't think it's necessarily... like in Hollywood films, they explain how all the tricks are done. I don't think that's a good idea.

When, and how, did you realize what power Cinema can have?

Seeing certain films when I was young. When I was a very young child, I was taken to the Chinese Theatre here by my Grandmother, to see "Noah's Ark". It has a scene in a Pagan Temple, taking place before the flood, which of course gave the Hollywood set designers and costume designers an excuse to invent a completely imaginary world. Like Atlantis...wonderful sets and costumes in a very barbaric Pagan style, and I always loved those. It's all washed away by the flood, and I remember being very upset about this. It was such a nice place. "Why do they have to wash it away...?" (laughs) My Grandmother tried to explain, "that's because they were wicked", but I said "they looked pretty interesting to me!" Then I was myself in the film "A Midsummer Night's Dream", again through my grandmother's influence. That was a thrilling thing to be associated with, and then, when I saw that... The scenes of the world of the fairies were so beautifully done in that film. It's never been done better. That's the part of the film that I loved, rather than the intrigue bertween the lovers and all that. It's that element of fantasy which is suggested in Shakespeare. But in stage productions they can't do it. In film suddenly, it's expanded to this "dance of the spirits of the moonbeam", and things like that. Later, when I went to France and saw the films of Georges Meliès, his trick films, I realized that you can do wonderful things in film without having tremendous amounts of money. You just need imagination and the kind of deep wonder vision of a child. Things appearing out of nowhere, and things like that. I've always loved film, but only a few times in my life have I had enough money to do what I wanted to do. Commercial films were never really an option for me, because I felt that to deal in the commercial marketplace... I'm more of a poet than a salesman, so I never tried to become a part of the commercial industry.

Were you ever approached by the film industry in the beginning?

No. I was always in my own little corner as an independent artist. I wasn't the only one. In the silent period you had experimental films, or, as they were called, avant-garde, being made by Man Ray, Léger, René Clair. I saw all of those films at an early age, and of course in France later, I saw Jean Cocteau's "The Blood of a Poet", which is one of my favourite films. But I began to make films before I saw it. And then, of course, Buñuel's "L'Age d'Or". So I saw the power of the medium. I've made about nine films which I consider are finished enough to show to the public. I have other films that are unfinished: either they lack a soundtrack, or some scenes are missing, and I prefer not to show them. Some films have been destroyed or lost, which is too bad, but that's one of the things that can happen. I had one film that was censored by Eastman Kodak because it had nudity in it. It was called "The Love That Whirls", and it was based on a passage in "The Golden Bough" by Frazer. It's about when they choose someone to play God for a year. The boy is treated as a God, like a King, and then, after the year, he's sacrificed. That's something that occurred in different ancient cultures, including the Aztecs. It goes back in Europe much further. I had some nude figures in that, and this was in the early 1940s. It wasn't even remotely sexual. They were artistic nudes, but it was a no-no. They confiscated the film and I never got it back. At that time you couldn't get colour film developed except through Eastman Kodak. There weren't any independent labs. So, I've had a battle in the past with censorship... "Scorpio Rising" was first running in California in 1964. It was seized by the police, and now the amount of controversy in the film is so little. The few flashes of nudity are so brief. It's hard to see what all the fuss was about!

Did they actually go to the theatre and take the prints?

They took the print from the theatre, and they arrested the manager. I wasn't there at that time, so I don't know whether they would've arrested me or not, but the reason why they did it was that the American Nazi Party didn't like the film. They denounced it to the cops. They didn't say "we're the American Nazi Party", but they were the ones who did it. If the vice squad in America -although I don't know if they're still that way - have a citizen's complaint from anybody, they will act on it. If they say "this shop is selling a dirty book", they check it out. This was back then... I think now there's been such an avalanche of obscenity, that I doubt they're still that vigilant. There was that Swedish film, "I'm Curious, Yellow". I haven't seen it for years, but now it would seem so innocuous. But at that time it was very controversial. People went to see it, hoping to see a little bit of tits or something. That's how the situation has evolved. The pendulum now seems to be swinging back... Dr. Kinsey was a friend of mine, and he said that "censorship and permissiveness towards sexuality in the cultures of the world, it goes like a pendulum..."

It's also quite symbolic in general, how sexuality is regarded...

Yes. These are tough times. The worst thing is that there are so many diseases. It does have an effect on the freedom of sexuality. And that is used by the moralists as an excuse to condemn all sexual expressions.

Do you agree with the theory that AIDS is an imposed disease?

Well, that sounds too paranoid. Too much like paranoia. I have no proof of that. It would be convenient to think that, but, on the other hand, if it could be... H.G. Wells wrote a story called "The Island of Dr. Moreau", which is a wonderful story. In it, he predicted that the world would be infected with unknown diseases that would shape the things to come. He invented one, "the wandering sickness", which was like a kind of incurable fever... People would break out in sweats and they would have the desire to sleepwalk and wander. And then they'd have to shoot them. It was convenient for H.G. Wells, because he thought that even in 1935, the world was much too overpopulated. He wanted to cut the population on earth by one third. As an artist, you can invent a plague with a sweep of the pen that will wipe out two thirds just like that... then, from that, a new elite develops. He calls them the "air men". This is of course a fantasy, but I wish we could have an elite. It seems to me in many different ways that progress is an illusion, and that for every advance, there's a step backwards.

We were talking briefly yesterday about the moral decline and the changes in society... Do you think that Crowley’s concept of the ”Aeon of Horus” will ever be established?

Well, I believe in it. But we're in the chaos stage of birth that will be very rough. At least it seems that the nuclear threat between the super-powers is perhaps diminishing. Next year Gorby could be overthrown, and you could have a new reactionary regime in Moscow. It's amazing how he's kept them at bay. He's almost like in a cage of tigers. A wild animal trainer who just with his eyes says, "stay down, stay back!" Anyway, it's fascinating to watch, but on the other hand there's such an element of... I think that the human species has in it the seeds of the Destroyers, whether they're thugs in India or whatever, Kali-worshippers... The terrorists, like the Red Brigade who killed the head banker in Germany, are like in a time warp. What reds are they working for? It's beside the point of history, and history's passed them by. There they are - still blowing up people like the anarchists in 1900, or killing the equivalent of a king. A banker is like the king of Yugoslavia or something, the one that set off World War One. It's possible that terrorism will continue, because there will always be people who have grudges if they get a hold of poison gas or biological weapons, which would be quite easy to manufacture, like viruses. I think harmony is far away. If it ever happens! And in the meantime the climate is being ruined. And very fast! To me, the destruction of the Brazilian rainforests requires international pressure. All the governments, from Mexico down, Central America, South America, they're all caricatures of corruption. And the chief villain is an American billionaire, who's cutting it down because he's raising cheap cattle to sell to McDonald's for McDonald's hamburgers. It's so revolting, and very unhealthy food anyway. In five or ten years, the land will be depleted and no longer can they raise the cattle and the forests will be gone. A new desert will start, and this will be an ecological catastrophe for the whole world. To me the cause should be strong enough... you can't just say to this corrupt government: "don't do it! Naughty, naughty, don't do that..." It's almost reason to declare war on them. This would be very messy and difficult, and it would have to be through the United Nations or something, not just one country. There's also a problem with the water supplies being contaminated, the oceans being contaminated... It's such a precious planet. When you realize that in our solar system, this is the only place suitable for life... All the rest are deserts or totally poisonous. Like Mars, it's very inhospitable, and that's the only one remotely possible, but it's terribly cold and you'd have to create sealed environments. The other planets are just impossible. Beyond our solar system, everything is so far away, we're talking about light-years, that it's a question of "this is all we have". I think the planet should be called Planet Earthquake, because the planet has one million earthquakes every year, big ones and little ones. A million earthquakes is a lot! Some regions are much worse than others, like Japan and the Pacific coast of America. The volcanic cracks go right down from Alaska all the way down to South America. The whole coast is volcanic, unstable. But it's better than living on Venus, where you have oceans of sulphuric acid!! (laughs) I love wildlife and animals, and to see the way they're being treated, the arrogance of the human species... the worst guardians of African wildlife are the Africans. They don't care. To them there's just one name for it - it's just meat. Or a nuisance... they try to grow their fields in an area that belongs to the elephants, so the elephants come to the fields and trample them, and they kill the elephants. They have no way of existing in harmony with animals, so it's tragic what's happening. The elephant population in Africa is half of what it was ten years ago! Ten years is such a short time...

It's the same thing with wolves in Sweden.

Terrible. So, I don't know whether people will be able to band together to do something, because obviously the individual can do nothing. I believe in the environment and Greenpeace and all those things that want to save the planet. But I think it needs to be like a war crisis. I'm fairly pessimistic about it. I'm personally very pessimistic about the human race, and I think that's something I share with Anton (LaVey). You have wonderful geniuses, poets, and artists, but yet so many who are destroyers and don't care. The biggest problem is overpopulation. If I had my way, it'd probably be like they have in China or India, where they are only allowed so many children. It isn't working there either, but at least they try and limit it. You're only supposed to have one child, which is like an humiliation to traditional China, because you were supposed to have five or six, and as many sons as possible. The Hispanic people that live in this neighbourhood for instance, they come up from Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, all those countries, many illegally, and they bring with them the breeding habits of the third world. The women start having children at 16, and from then on until menopause, they have a baby every nine months! They end up with 15-20 children! Even if some of them are intelligent - which I question! - they'll never have jobs for all of these people, unless they want to pick in the fields or something like that...

Our talks turned, not unexpectedly, to the ”Prophet of the Aeon”, Aleister Crowley, who's been such a great influence in Anger's films. Anger’s Magnum Opus, "Lucifer Rising", is heavily influenced by Crowley's poem "Hymn to Lucifer", and he's planned for a long time to do a substantial film version of Crowley’s ”Gnostic Mass”. And also more biographically oriented material, if ever given the opportunity.

I had plans and did sketch out a realistic film based on Crowley's living at Cefalu, at the Abbey of Thelema. That's basically why I went there (in 1955), to do research. I lived in it. But I don't know if it'll ever happen, because I'd have to find serious money... that's always been a great obstacle to me. When I've made films, either a relative has left me some money, like my mother left me some bonds and I cashed them in, or I had some help from the National Endowment for the Arts and the Ford Foundation. But not very much, only modest amounts. Not enough to do these projects. It's also become more difficult to get that kind of sponsorship. Something like the Gnostic Mass would be like half an hour long. It could be done for a modest amount of money, but I want the setting and the robes and everything to be beautiful. In some cases I might want to use actors instead of members, because they may be more impressive. That's perfectly alright. The thing where the people who belong to the Brotherhood will be helpful is in getting the accuracy of the ritual gestures and all that right. I've seen it done by several groups, including the group in Switzerland, and some did better than others. Some things are open to a bit of interpretation. So, that's something to think about, and I might be able to get some sponsorship for it from one of the art organizations.

Do you usually work with ready scripted material and storyboards, or do you work on a more spontaneous level?

I have it mostly inside my head, and I make notes of what I need. I usually do a technical breakdown of what I need. But it isn't like a written script for a play or a usual film, because I basically work in images, not in dialogue or narration. If I film a Crowley ritual, it would be a different direction for me, because it would be the first time I use speaking. Up to now I've only worked in silent films. I'm closer to dance, the way ballet can tell a story without using speech, and in that sense I'm closer to that. But I'm willing, if I had the means, to use speech.

Do you have equipment of your own?

I have some, but I usually borrow or rent it from various people who have it. Particularly the editing equipment, there are places I can go and use that. I don't have to have my own.

Would you rather work in 35mm?

Yes, if the budget would permit it, and if I could get a loan of a 35mm camera. There's ways of getting 35mm film in a city like Hollywood, because there are places to buy film that is left over from other productions. If you're careful, you can get excellent film enough to shoot with for a fraction of what it would cost to buy it new. You may have to load the camera with a piece that's just enough for one scene and then load it again. It's not difficult to conquer those kinds of problems. Ingenuity!

What effects do you want your films to have on the audience?

Well, I would like for them to... the idea that you can see a film, or watch a play, or read a poem and be changed. I think it can effect you. Certainly Crowley, in his poetry, and the plays he wrote, and various literary works... it was to effect change, like through a Will. Whether this is directly or subliminally, indirectly or whatever, I do believe that change is possible. The ways in which this happens are mysterious. I've never made something to change day into night, though it would be a nice idea...

You have chosen the same means as Crowley, that is, not sloganeering, but a rather more poetic and romantic approach...

Right.

How did you first hear of (LA-based Crowley disciple) Jack Parsons?

He was working here at the Jet Propulsion Laboratories. He actually invented the fuel that took the Apollo rocket to the moon. He has a crater on the moon named after him, which is rather thrilling. I'm convinced that he was murdered by Howard Hughes. Howard Hughes wanted him to work for him, and he simply didn't want to. When you work for Howard Hughes, you lose your freedom. In other words, he tells you what to do. He was very much like L. Ron Hubbard. Jack Parsons was kidnapped by Howard Hughes. They followed him in a limousine, and two big, strong bodyguard types hopped out and physically picked up Jack Parsons and put him in the limo and drove him around. That's physically kidnapping! It's a crime! To physically interfere with someone and to do something with their body is a felony crime, whether you physically harm them or not. In the limo, there was a representative of Mr. Hughes. He said "Mr. Hughes admires your talent, and we're sorry to pick you up like this. We want to forcefully get the message across that Mr. Hughes wants you to quit JPL and work for him." They had spies out, and knew that he was doing some really interesting scientific work. Jack played it cool, and said "well, I'll have to think about it. Please let me out by my home in Pasadena..." But they drove him around for about an hour, and it was definitely intimidation. Anyway, he then decided that the time had come for him and Marjorie Cameron to leave for Mexico, because his life was in danger. He was packing up to leave when his house exploded, and he was killed. He knew how to handle explosives and things like that, and also the explosion was so strong that the whole house was destroyed - a big house with two stories! His wife had gone around the corner to do some shopping for a picnic. They were going to drive without stopping from Pasadena to Mexico, and it was like they were escaping from this monster who was Howard Hughes. Instead of that, the house blew up, and she heard the explosion and went back. There was no house! She was like one block away...

What originally made you interested in Thelema?

As soon as I heard about it, something clicked and I said "This is mine!" My family is Scottish-Presbyterian from an ethnic background of German and Scottish. I was never attracted to their church. They tried to take me when I was twelve or something, and I told them "No!". I was the first child to do that, and my brother and sister were both very happy to go along in the footsteps. I refused to go to church on Sundays, and I got my allowance cut because I was rebelling in a way that embarrassed them. But then they left me alone. So I had rejected Christianity at an early age, and I never believed in Santa Claus either! (laughs) I find Christianity repellent. I don't like the story, I don't feel I need someone to get nailed to a cross to pay for my sins. It's ugly! I don't know how much longer it'll last... it's collapsing in ways that are pretty obvious, but it may yet take centuries. At the time of its collapse, it creates these monsters like the evangelists. Bigotry and censorship are coming back again. Most members of the human race don't deserve Thelema. I hate to say it, but they're rotten! Whether they're born rotten or they become rotten, they're sheep. They're unawakened. I don't waste energy on hatred, that's foolish. As a magician, I conserve my energy. Wherever I live, I try to create a sanctuary for myself. As much as I can, I have the things around me that I love.

What, would you say, are the main advantages of this concept of a "total environment"?

It's control. You can do it in one room or even in a tent, I suppose. The idea is to create a sanctuary of harmony that is a reflection outwards of the best parts of yourself. So, I'm projecting outwards... even if I have chaos in me, or confusion, I try to make a projection of the admirable things. I have a controlled chaos in the form of my storage areas and my closets where I hide all my things... I haven't mastered it completely! I always say I need more space, but maybe I need a computer to keep track of everything, so I don't lose things. More shelves, more storage...

One aspect of Crowley’s writings that has been misinterpreted in many ways, is of course the main dictum ”Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law”. Anger could, mainly in the 1960s, see how a philosophy of will and responsibility was turned into one of lazy laissez-faire beyond all common sense. Not least in regard to the chemical adventures of many colorful would-be-psychonauts who thought they were doing serious spiritual work while dropping acid. I wondered what Anger’s stance is nowadays on chemical adventures?

I'm strongly opposed to nicotine smoking. It's like a vampire, sucking on the human race. Crowley, of course, was a smoker. He smoked like a volcano! It didn't do him any good, considering the fact that he had asthma and emphyzema. He was very short of breath. I don't like to sound like a puritan about things like that. I like to smoke pot occasionally, because it gives me a high. It does some good. Whereas the lift you get from nicotine is so ephemeral. It's addictive. It's diabolical. It takes away much more than it gives. And then I find it extremely offensive, the way people will smoke at you, or smoke in a restaurant or a public space where there's other people that don't want it! Their smoke is going in your face... and in your lungs! When Crowley lived, the medical science hadn't realized how extremely bad it was, with lung cancer and everything. Crowley might have changed his mind about it, but he believed in trying all the dangerous things, and whether that's the Thelemic way... I think it is, but for an elite. The thing that bores me about drugs now, is that they've become so public. You have cocaine being sold in some form on the street corners in the city by little kids. I still like marijuana, and I think it should be made legal. If alcohol is legal, you might as well... it serves the same kind of purpose maybe better than alcohol. It doesn't destroy your liver the way alcohol does. It clarifies you. But apparently, it's not going to happen in this century. Two things that are important to Thelema have become turned into demons by the cultures: Drugs and Sex. It's like "sex and drugs and rock'n'roll"! Because of the new diseases and the war on drugs, there's almost a war on sex too. People are afraid of experiments. I hope some kind of solution can be found to these problems before too many more years pass. It seems out of control right now. There's no medical thing on the horizon, like a vaccine.

The only thing would be more restrictions and thereby greater control...

Yes. And caution, and fidelity. It's not a good time for Don Juan! (laughs)

Have you never been tempted to pursue any other artistic expressions, like painting or writing?

Well, I write to earn money. My writing projects are mostly concerned with things like the Hollywood scandals. I'm generally interested in that field. Scandals and tragedies are an important part of the historical records of cultures. They reflect at any given time what is considered over-the-edge of behaviour, and it's also something that the public can be fascinated with, and afraid of... They're demonized and glamourized. The books I've written on Hollywood have been about that aspect. I'll probably do another one, because I need to earn some more money. A certain number of years elapse between the books, and suddenly I need the money. So that usually is the spirit...

Do you know how much the first two have sold?

They were on the bestseller-list in The New York Times, both books, and that meant five or six editions, and they're both still in print. So, it must be over half a million copies. The new one will also be Hollywood scandals and tragedies, but the trouble is, I feel I've used up all the good stories... And I don't like contemporary Hollywood. The characters aren't larger than life, they're usually smaller than life! (laughs) I can write about someone like Fatty Arbuckle or Jean Harlow or Garbo, but to write about someone like Barbra Streisand...

Do you think there are any stars left?

There are some good actors. Tom Cruise is an excellent actor. He's a better actor than James Dean ever was, as far as sheer acting. And maybe it's better if the stars get humanized and not made into false gods. Turning humans into gods has more reasons against it than for it. It places that person in a prison. I've talked to people like Mick Jagger and they say they can't even take a walk. People will bother them because their face is so famous. Strangers will come up and follow them. They don't have that cloak of invisibility that most of us have. When I knew Mick in London in the early 70s, he liked to go out in the streets at two o'clock in the morning, and just run by the river... for blocks and blocks, just to feel free. I used to run with him at times. It was like a bird out of the cage!

What is it with Rudolph Valentino that fascinates you so much?

He was the first male sex god. He was a male that had erotic appeal, and recognized frankly as that. "The Latin Lover"... He was the first one to do it, in a real sense, for a man. I also think he was a good actor, and he had that intangible thing called charisma. He was a Taurus. I collect him.

What will your book on him be like?

It'll be basically a picture book with little comments on my feelings about him. Many of the pictures have never been published before, and there's never been a book on Valentino that's had colour in it. I will have colour illustrations. I hope I can find a publisher who can agree to the amount of colour pages. I haven't chosen yet. Maybe one like Abrams... the costs of doing it in colour are so great, I almost need like three countries to agree on it. Some art books are published in Japanese, British, and Italian, or something like that. Some of the best colour printing is done in Japan. They've perfected the technique with laser printing the colours.

Can you tell me about your "Hollywood Babylon" film project? Part archive, part fiction?

Yes, with some recreated scenes with actors. That's difficult, but I intend to do it in a stylized way. If you have an actor impersonate a star, it's very difficult, because they're too well-known. Like, how could you find someone to impersonate Garbo? It's just impossible... But I've found some wonderful archive material. The producer, Ed Pressman, and I cannot agree on the budget, so it may never happen. I'm quite resigned to the fact that it may never happen. I say I need fifteen million and he wants to do it for two million...

How do you think the film medium will develop in the future?

Well, film may be replaced by some magnetic tape and a way to project it that gives a great, clear and beautiful image. They're supposed to clear video projection up in ten years, so... I hate video projection now, because it's bad enough the way it is. To me, it's an abomination! It loses all quality in colour and definition. It's moving wallpaper, to have in a disco or something. There's some wonderful techniques coming up though... Something called IMAX, a huge image. It's like 70mm filmed on its side, so that each frame is as big as a postcard. When this is projected, you get absolute clarity, and you can have a screen five stories high. It's a Canadian system. They have a theatre here, and one in New York. They're usually connected with some museum, but they make films especially for it. They've never made it like a commercial story. It's always like "The history of flight", but they're done in a very poetic way. They're actually quite good. There's one on time that's very interesting, and another one on "save the Grand Canyon". Very beautiful. Mostly wildlife and things like that. Then there's another system called "Showscan", which uses film that goes through the camera and the projector at twice the speed, which completely eliminates flicker... So it's like looking at reality! Even though it's not three-dimensional, it's still so clear that it gives an illusion of three dimensions. It's developed by a man named Douglas Trumbull, and there's been a few presentations of it at the World's Fair in Seattle, and a few private showings here and there. But it's never been used commercially, because the drawback is it uses up so much film that the reels of film have to be giant, they have to be huge! Human ingenuity may come up with some wonderful techniques that we've never thought of. I thought that by this time in my life, there would be a practical method of three-dimensional, but there's not. If you have to wear glasses or something, it destroys the illusion right there. Holograms are not practical. The images look very fake. You can't use it in a narrative. To me, all of these things are beside the point. If you have a strong subject and the personal vision of a genius, someone like Eisenstein, the Russian genius, or Von Stroheim, or Von Sternberg, or John Ford, or Hitchcock, or someone like that... It's the personal vision that counts, not the technique! I'm fascinated with film, but the fact that it's so expensive almost makes it out of reach. Some filmmakers have been much more prolific than I, and I regret that I haven't been able to do more. But I'm glad I've made as many as I have, and I can always make more. It's possible the money will be available to me again in the future.

You've met quite a lot of interesting people. Who of these have influenced you the most?

I was fortunate enough to meet Jean Cocteau. He's had a great influence, because to me he was always a pure artist who yet could work in the modern world. He's not as much of a clown as someone like Salvador Dali who became like a caricature. Cocteau remained closer to his inner vision, and yet occasionally he could do things like design an ad for a perfume or something. It wouldn't matter, you know. He became a member of the Academie Française, and had his sword and all that. But he always kept a slightly ironic attitude towards it. He said "If you break a statue, you risk turning into one". He kept his distance, always. So Cocteau was an influence, and earlier I'd met D.W. Griffith here in Hollywood. Later I met Von Stroheim, another man I admire very much. Then the great director of the French Cinématheque - Henri Langlois. I worked for him as his assistant for twelve years. That was a great thrill. And of course I never met Crowley, because he died in 1947, and I never got to Europe before 1950. But I feel I know him very intimately as a man and as a creator, because I've studied his works all my life. And I've lived in his home in Cefalu. I have enough imagination that I could see what attracted him to it, to that place. He became too notorious, and attracted the attention of Mussolini. Even if it hadn't had anything to do with his magical society, Mussolini was very anti-British. So just the fact that an eccentric Englishman lived in a part of Italy at that time... He got expelled. If he'd been a little more savvy, Crowley might have chosen Tunisia instead of Sicily. He went there afterwards, just took the boat across from Palermo. His life was a very adventurous life, always full of conflict. It was never like "This is the safest solution, or the one that will cause the least trouble..." It was quite on the contrary! To go to a city like Palermo, very Catholic in the most primitive way, not enlightened at all, and with the peasants being very superstitious and afraid of strangers. They thought they were Devil worshippers or something, running around in their robes and things like that. I talked to some peasants in Cefalu who’d actually seen Crowley perform rituals outside his house in the garden. Liber Resh to the sun and everything. They didn’t know what it was, but as little children of five or six, they watched this strange man. And they described it in movements... they remembered! Particularly the coloured robes. It was so fascinating to hear this, the way a child could remember Napoleon or Jesus doing something. After he was kicked out, some of the women remained. They were so poor, that they had to sell the furniture to the peasants, just in exchange for some eggs or meat or bread or something. I found Crowley’s writing desk about a mile away, and they remembered it. ”That came from the Englishman...” I’m sorry I didn’t have the money to buy it, but they treasured it. It’s still probably there... They don’t use it as a table to eat on or anything. They turned it into their home altar, covered with Catholic saints. I looked at it, and it had some ink stains, which were obviously from Crowley’s ink well. And a few scratched doodles, like pentagrams and things like that. They couldn’t really write, and I asked if they had anything else. ”Yes, La Biblia...” They had a book wrapped in cloth behind their virgin Mary. They thought it was the Bible, but it wasn’t the Bible at all... it was one of Crowley’s books, not by Crowley though, bound in gold... it was by a Dean of Cambridge, called ”Through the halls of history” or something like that. A history of Trinity College in Cambridge, where Crowley went to school for a while.

Our conversation came to an end and we then had a great dinner at a nearby Mexican restaurant (”They have the best margaritas”, Anger assured me). As I left Los Angeles on the following day, Anger gave me a copy of a photographic print from the Yorke collection. According to Anger it’s called ”Crowley dressed as a lesbian dandy” but I do suspect it’s actually Crowley dressed up in initiatory gear of a more esoteric kind than mere ”lesbian dandyism”. Anyway, the photo still hangs on my wall and brings back great memories from that first enchanting encounter.

We kept in touch sporadically over the years and met again in 1998, at the time of the now legendary exhibition of Crowley’s own paintings at the October Gallery in London. Having contributed with a fair number of items for the exhibition from his own collection, Anger seemed pleased that the outside world had caught up with Crowley’s worth. Perhaps not as a great painter (some would enthusiastically claim the opposite) but at least as a cultural icon and source of inspiration ever since his death in 1947.

Anger himself seemed a bit more reserved in London, perhaps not feeling comfortable in crowds of young and eager ”occultniks”. At one point he asked me to escort him through the crowds and back to his hotel, which of course I did. But despite this, it was indeed a great time to network and make new friends for Anger, predominantly in the Crowley-based community. Anger’s presence at the show brought with it a great deal of (I’m not afraid to say it) ”magic”. His own collecting and his fervent willingness to talk about Crowley and Thelema over the decades has probably made more good PR for the old beast in certain environments than any biographer has yet understood or cared to mention. Be that as it may. In 1998 Kenneth Anger was literally ”in the house” and helped crown a magnificently interesting exhibition in many ways.

In 2006 I thought it would be interesting to do a follow-up on our meetings and talks. As I was going to be in Los Angeles anyway, I suggested we meet and do another interview. Anger was at the time busy preparing some photographic prints from his films for a group show at the Whitney in New York, something that obviosuly pleased him. On the whole, he seemed tired and reserved, but the spark beneath the aged surface was undeniably there. We had lunch, did another interview, went on a walk through Griffith Park, talked some more. On the following day we had lunch at the classic Hollywood haunt the Château Marmont, and also a memorable tour of the Hollywood Forever-cemetary, where Rudolph Valentino and a huge host of other legendary celebrities rest in peace.

Although the following interview isn’t quite as extensive or enthusiastic as the 1989 one, it still gives a good overview of a more contemporary Kenneth Anger, willing to try out shooting on video and editing digitally, etc. His increased reclusive reservation is apparent in the interview but it may of course just have been a gloomy day rather than a consistent attitude per se.

Last we met was at the Crowley show in London in 1998. How many of those Crowley paintings were yours?

About six.

Did you have any creative input in the show?

No. I just let them use what I had.

Are you happy about how it turned out?

Yes. It’s difficult to round up enough of them from private sources.

What happened with your paintings after the show? Did you donate them to the OTO?

They have them on permanent loan. That’s basícally the same thing. I don’t see them that often anymore. I don’t know where they’re kept now. I think they’re in Austin. Have you seen the centennial edition of the Book of the Law?

Yes.

Have you seen this one about my films? (Alice Hutchinson)

Yes, I have it. You’ve done ”Mouse Heaven” and some other stuff recently. A documentary about Crowley in Italy, if I’m not mistaken?

Yes, it was produced by some Canadians from Toronto. I haven’t been as active as I can though. Money is always a problem. Sometimes I get grants.

Can you feel that the Hutchinson book has increased interest in your work?

Well, no one gets in touch with me because they don’t know how to find me. But it has created a little buzz.

When I first saw the book I thought it should really have been published some 20 years ago. Why do you think it’s taken someone so long to put together a book about you?

I don’t care about that. She usually writes for art magazines and this was her first book. I think she handled it very well. She treated my films like works of art. And that’s what they are. The book is amply illustrated too.

Do you still do lectures and film show tours?

To some extent. I was given an honorary doctorate at the Art Center of the College of Design in Pasadena, quite a prestigious place. I gave a lecture there.

Why is it that people don’t commission you to write more?

I’ve been trying to make a film about the Gnostic Mass but I haven’t found enough money for it. I planned it very carefully. There are many different ways I could work on that. I saw the Gnostic Mass that the OTO arranged. It’s a challenge because a lot of it is quite static. There’s not a lot of movement. Whether I will ever do it or not, I don’t know.

If you take recent technological advances into consideration: video, inexpensive editing facilities, do you see that as a good thing for your own future projects?

I have worked with AVID already. It’s a beautiful editing system. But I could never afford it myself of course.

Have you ever thought of writing an autobiography?

I have thought about it but I ended up not doing it.

There are two main areas that people associate you with: one is Thelema and the other is experimental films. How would you say that these areas have developed? Thelema, for instance, has taken quantum leaps since you started out.

It’s encouraging. The membership of the OTO seems to have grown and young people seem interested. It’s encouraging. As for films I just try to do as much as I can. There are so many roadblocks in making films. I get tired of them. I do give up on projects that I simply can’t do. It’s unfortunate. I have several films that I almost finished. I had a friend who was a quite well known singer and songwriter, named Elliott Smith. I planned a film about him and that’s almost finished. I was also interested in a project in South America, on a colony of Germans in Paraguay. It’s a very curious place and I would love to film that. But I don’t have the money to do that. ”Nueva Germania”. It was founded by Nietzsche’s sister. It’s a place of inbreeding. There’s not enough genetic variety. It’s an interesting ironic story.

A eugenic experiment gone wrong...

Yes, it was not a good result.

What would you say is your best quality on a personal level?

Perseverance, I guess. I stick with my vision as much as I can. I have faults too. As for money, I often get exasperated and give up. But at the same time I pursue my vision. But with some projects, if I can’t find the money within a reasonable time, I let it be.

You’ve traveled the world and you’ve made so many beautiful films. But did you also do photography?

I made a conscious decision not to. I could have traveled around with a still camera too. Now I’m sorry I didn’t. I wanted to experience things directly. I made a decision to see it with my eyes and not through a lens. Now I wish I had a few photographs from some of the places I’ve been to. Documentation.

For a while, you had a website up.

That was run by a friend of mine, a fan. I decided I didn’t want it there. I’d rather be inaccessible.

Was there a lot of attention coming in through that?

Yes, but I decided I didn’t want it. It’s a deliberate thing. I’m a little hard to reach. I don’t like all the electronic complications. It’s a negative force. I like an old-fashioned letter. That is now called ”snail mail”...

One could easily say that all of this electronic overload is fragmenting people...

Yes, I see it happening with other people. But I just didn’t want to buy into it.

Of all the interesting people that you’ve met, who would you say has been the most influential?

Dr. Kinsey was a great friend. Is his work known in Sweden?

Somewhat, but it tends to be forgotten...

That’s too bad. There was a movie out about him some years ago, but I didn’t see it. The Kinsey Institute is still going on. I was very fortunate to have met Gerald Yorke and talk about his Crowley archives. I think that’s being donated to the Warburg collection. But that’s sad, because things are stolen from the Warburg. I hate that. Things disappear. But it’s too late now.

You also started collecting Crowley rare editions and manuscripts early on. Where did that take place?

I actually had some stuff already in the 1940s. But when I grew up you could find Crowley stuff in second hand bookshops. I picked up quite a few things in stores. But there were also things at auctions, at places like Sotheby’s. That’s how I met Jimmy Page. We used to bid for the same items. He has an extensive Crowley collection. He’s very closed, self-protective, like many people on that level in the music business get to be. They’re used to fending off fans. Anyway, he has a large collection.

Can you pinpoint a person in your life that’s been your greatest love?

No.

Are there any writers, filmmakers or artists today that you think are doing interesting work?

I think there’s quite a lot of interesting work. I’m working right now on preparing some things for a show at the Whitney. It’s enlargements from ”Invocation of My Demon Brother”. That’ll be in March 2006. I’m glad to be part of that. It’s quite an honor.

It’s hard to grasp how influential you’ve been. Do you ever think about that?

I don’t find it particularly flattering. I’m just part of life. But I’m not offended by it either. As long as they get the facts right.

What’s your greatest hope?

I would still like to make a feature film. I’m so identified with short films. I respect the short film as an artform but I have a few ambitions for a feature film. It’s not like I have scripts that are ready to go, but I have certain stories that are suitable for a feature film. When I was in Australia I was doing research on Rosaleen Norton. Her life could make a fascinating feature film. It’s amazing that no one over there has thought about it.

Do you see any similarities between Norton and (Jack Parsons’ wife) Cameron?

No, they were totally different kinds of people. But they were both extremely strong. Cameron was never interested in selling her drawings and paintings. She gave them away. She wasn’t very practical. She had her own perimeters.

If your greatest hope is to make a feature film, what would you say is your greatest fear?

I don’t have any fears. I’ve been pretty lucky with my health. Americans are usually very obese. It’s a sickness. I remember Henri Langlois at the Cinematheque in Paris. He loved to eat, and it was paid for by the French government. I worked for him for a long time. He put on weight. I didn’t.

If you could be an historical person, who would you be?

I don’t identify with anyone, so I don’t really know. There are people I admire. Crowley had a fascinating life but in many ways it vanished and his later years were not that happy. He worked up until the end with things like ”The Book of Thoth”.

Do you have a favorite current director?

I liked ”Brokeback Mountain” by Ang Lee. It’s worth seeing. I would have cut ten minutes off it, it’s a bit too long. But that’s true of most films I think. They’re too long.

What would you say is your greatest achievement so far?

There are a lot of things that I wish I’d done but I haven’t. Some of my films have been pretty close to what I’ve wanted to do. I suppose ”Lucifer Rising” is pretty close, and ”Scorpio Rising” also.

What projects are you working on right now?

I’m finishing ”Elliot’s Suicide”, which is a tribute film. I also have a film about Nicola Tesla in the works. I’m doing a short film on Tesla. It’s not a documentary. It’s more of a tribute. I’m calling it ”Tesla Power”. He was considered half mad and I think he was on the edge between reality and fantasy. At one point he was receiving messages from Mars, which obviously wasn’t the case. I don’t know why anyone would want to go to Mars. It seems to be such an unappealing place. Our planet has its own problems of course, but it’s still the ony one we can call home. It’s an amazing place.

Usually, you’re very critical about the contemporary times. But aren’t there any good things at all going on?

There are advances in medicine and things like that. But it’s hard not to be critical, I think.

Would you say that people are more aware or conscious than they were some decades ago?

Yes, you always have sparks in certain individuals that are encouraging.

Can you sometimes feel fed up or bored with being so associated with Crowley?

No. I’ve certainly never been bored with Crowley. It’s a challenge to be a thelemite. I’m not a very social person. I’ve gone to a number of these events but I don’t feel any necessity to mix with other people or go to their meetings. It becomes just like any other club. I don’t think Crowley would have approved of how lunar these meetings can become, in the sense that the women have so much control. On the other hand, at least the women are doing something.

On a more mainstream level, there have recently been movies like ”Lord of the Rings” and ”Harry Potter”, all dealing with magical things and themes. Do you see that as a good thing?

I saw one of the "…Rings" movies and decided not to see the others.

We are bombarded by impressions and saturations... How would you say one should go about to enlighten people today? Which would be the best way?

It’s their problem. It’s not my problem. I’m not bombarded by TV because I don’t have a TV. I don’t have a telephone because I don’t want that kind of communication. I don’t like calls coming in. The last time I moved, I decided not to renew my telephone. I’m getting by OK.

Keeping your sphere very intimate and private, is that a vitalising experience for you?

It’s like a private sanctaury. You need private space. I’m a lone wolf. I keep to myself. I do have friends but I don’t feel a compulsion to see them too often. Some people would say ”He sounds like a recluse to me!”, but I’m not. I occasionally go to see a film or to a concert. I love classical music.

It sounds like a good life then...

It’s not bad.

Are you still involved in ritual on a daily basis?

I do things in my mind. I always do rituals for the solstices and equinoxes. But it’s private. It’s just me.

Would you say that your films and works are talismans? In terms of potency, does it matter if others take part of them or not?

I don’t particularly care. I’ve sold prints to private collectors and institutions like the Museum of Modern Art in New York and the Chicago Art Institute.

I was thinking of something Picasso said: that it really doesn’t matter if someone sees the painting or not. It will still have an effect.

I think the explosion of creative force is an important one.

When looking back at your life and career, are you looking back in anger or contentment?

Well, I don’t look back in anger. I reserve that emotion. My name doesn’t mean ”anger” by the way. It’s a German name which means ”meadow”.

Post Scriptum: The 1989 interview section was published in the second issue of The Fenris Wolf (published in 1990, republished in 2011). The 2006 section has not been published in English before. You may be interested in knowing that the fourth issue of The Fenris Wolf (published in 2011) contains yet another conversation between Anger and myself, this time from The Danish Film School in Copenhagen, Denmark, 2008.

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